Curse

Jeydra · Jun 06, 2011, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

JQ and FA aren't PvP. Don't try to act like they are. They're areas that revolve around killing balls of NPCs in order to farm a PvE title.

You want to be careful with that statement. The Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero are NPCs, too. So is balling Knights and nuking them with Rodgort's Invocation / Scythes. I consider JQ and FA PvP.

Quote:

Is that what cappers think of JQ? Farming? You can think w/e you want but it doesn't change the fact it was supposed to be competitive, like any PvP. The reason why ppl think of it as farming and PvE is because of these builds that are designed to avoid combat and simply nuke npcs. This is not how JQ was supposed to be played. Or else there would be no point in making it PvP. Yes, its useful for farming faction points, but doing the same thing over and over, I can't understand how people have any fun at all. If not for these builds people would actually have to use their brains and organize assaults, defence, make use of tactics/teamwork. However, in their current state that is a waste of time, as you can simply walk in mindlessly and accomplish your goal. I guess some people find that 'okay' but to me it just shows a lack of skill.

Have you played a capper before? If you have, have you ever:

1. Been snared before you get to shrine?
2. Been killed before you get to shrine?
3. Failed to cap because the NPCs are being healed by defensive characters?
4. Get interrupted while capping?
5. Watched a shrine get taken back by the other team 5 seconds after you take it?

You cannot win by facerolling in JQ. If you don't have to fight through players to get to the shrine it's because your opponents are bad, nothing else.

As for so-called "pugs", same applies to RA. Team composition plays a part, and if your team are worse than the other you cannot reasonably expect to win. Claiming however that the team with more cappers wins is totally wrong. If you play with 8 N/A Bombers, your turtles will be impossible to defend, and one single turtle killer can potentially cost you the game. I played a game where Luxons held green and yellow for most of the game, and yet Kurzicks won 9-6. It wasn't because turtles got stuck. Why?

*lemming* · Jun 06, 2011, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You want to be careful with that statement. The Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero are NPCs, too. So is balling Knights and nuking them with Rodgort's Invocation / Scythes. I consider JQ and FA PvP.

There's a heavier emphasis on the abuse of AI via the application of AoE, though.

Killed u man · Jun 06, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Or simply put: GvG isn't based solely on killing NPC's. (Go Jeydra, quote me and say the GL is an NPC)

Way2dead · Jun 06, 2011, 04:34 PM // 16:34

i also don't consider jq and fa as pvp. It's just all running the same kind of builds, running to the npc's, killing them. sometimes it's just looking like a speed clear, you clear the necessary foes because you can ball them up, they are even balled up here for you 4 free, and heal a bit.

comparing this to gvg is also a bit lame, and like said before , you only use 1 skill for capping the whole shrine The knights, archers, the guild lord and bodyguard are not balled up like the npc's on JQ, and actually, FA too. You take RoJ on the bar you like, you go in and are able to cap mines @ FA and quarries @ jq, and like also said before, doesn't require any skill at all.

Jeydra · Jun 07, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Or simply put: GvG isn't based solely on killing NPC's. (Go Jeydra, quote me and say the GL is an NPC)

Neither is JQ based solely on killing NPCs.

It seems some people have never noticed the effects of other players in JQ / FA ...

Thornblade · Jun 07, 2011, 02:35 AM // 02:35

It seems to me that you can bring a sensible bar and move from one shrine to the next defeating the other players and capturing the shrines with the assistance of your allies, possibly defending your own if you are near enough and hold the majority, but you will find that these pvx players run past you and undo all of your efforts in a short time frame without very much diffuculty, and from what people are suggesting you would be better off standing on a shrine all match, or roaming around the central area griefing / snaring the other players in 1v1s ( which would tend to restrict the playable builds ), this doesnt really sound like how i want to use my class so perhaps this is why i dont like JQ.

Random Scrubinator · Jun 07, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Any sort of healing, interrupts, or hex/condition removal will prevent RoJ or Necro Bombers from working. If people actually bothered protecting the shrines, these builds would fall out of meta

Lillium · Jun 07, 2011, 04:33 AM // 04:33

This thread is just silly QQ.
Not all PvP is created equal, because not all players enjoy the same types of pvp. And GW is a fairly pvp heavy game, so they should offer a fairly wide variety of formats. Competitive missions, as PvPvE, are both pve and pve and shouldn't have "I don't consider this real pvp" disclaimers everywhere.
IMO, CM's are the easiest pvp to get into as a casual pvp'er (or a pve player who generally dislike pvp). CM's tend to be much less hostile between players (less shouting noob, l2p, etc) then pure pvp, and an inexperienced pvp'er has a much better chance of winning (or not causing the team to loose).

There are only two real problems with JQ. First is that it is extremely inefficient to get faction from compared to most pve based faction activities (vq'ing, quest farming, urgoz/the deep). Unless you've got two very heavy bomber/capper heavy teams (for constant npc death and faction) and a bounty/weekend bonus, JQ rewards rather low faction. Albeit, that may be intentional, and the various quest/weekend bonuses seem to be the "fix" to it. Second is wait time, which makes the first problem that much worse.
There is no problem with players using very dedicated and specific builds to cap shrines or whatever, as they can all be easily overcome with 1-2 skills. Nor is this a "problem" that Anet should fix - they're not doing this. Players are causing the situation.
There may be a problem, a Pugs not Drugs stated with RoJ capping a shrine in one skill. But that's a problem with the monk profession (which has many problems), not with the pvp format. That's something that should actually be fixed by Anet, and they have stated they will do so.

drkn · Jun 07, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Every game its either: N/A Bomber or M/P with RoJ or R/Any or E/Any.

Or Me/any, or D/any...
When it comes to JQ, i don't know what's the real problem - RoJ and equivalent skills/builds on other classes or the fact that not every class can cap in five seconds (hey there, para).

Quote:

There's a heavier emphasis on the abuse of AI via the application of AoE, though.

True, but only because of the randomness of the format. It's much better, and safer, to run an offensive build based around capping mines rather than a typical PvP one, or prot/heal one, or something balanced, or a teamplay paragon. If JQ/FA weren't random, but there was an option to assemble your own team, they'd be much more focused on eliminating the other group than they are now, as groups would be generally more optimized, more diverse, with someone to camp and someone to cap mines rather than just the latter.

Killed u man · Jun 07, 2011, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Neither is JQ based solely on killing NPCs.

It seems some people have never noticed the effects of other players in JQ / FA ...

It is.

JQ: The only way to improve further into the PvP match is by spawning NPC's through killing enemy NPC's. The only way to stop your opponent from moving forward is by killing their NPC's (carriers).

There is no (need for) direct combat anywhere in JQ; sure if there's a Monk keeping the Carrier alive you'll probably have to kill him first, but you don't have to kill the Monk to directly advance yourself.

FA: same story, only there's walls and Guntaaaaaah.

Killing other players in JQ and FA is an option, but the truth is that you'll win alot more if you focus on the NPC aspect. (Wastrel's mesmers Luxon side FA = lol) It's only common sense if you think about it: enemy players rezz within seconds after they've been killed at full health and energy. So when you kill a player, you'll find yourself facing him again 20 seconds later. If you focus on shrines instead, you can wipe a shrine, get a carrier in and score actual points.

I'm also not saying killing players doesn't have any effect in JQ or FA, obviously if you can kill a monk, you have potentially defended a shrine from getting nuked, or have the option to kill a carrier, but the truth is that killing other players is still vastly inferior to killing NPC's.

Having almost accumulated 3M faction in both JQ and FA, I can safely say I'dd rather get teamed up with 7 monks rather than 7 warriors or even a mix of both. Maybe, and that's assuming I know I'll face a decent team, I would go with 6 monks and a warrior, but even then. The amount of gimmick bars in JQ and FA usually decide who wins.

Jeydra · Jun 07, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

GvG: The only way to win is to kill the NPC aka. the Guild Lord, or to deal as much damage to him as possible in 28 minutes, which is facilitated by killing NPCs.

HA: The only way to win (on some maps) is to kill the NPC aka. the Ghostly Hero of the other team, while keeping your own Ghostly Hero alive.

Ridiculous.

Quote:

JQ: The only way to improve further into the PvP match is by spawning NPC's through killing enemy NPC's. The only way to stop your opponent from moving forward is by killing their NPC's (carriers).

Wrong on the first count. You can "improve further" by keeping your NPCs alive. Wrong on the second. You can "stop your opponent from moving forward" by not letting them cap shrines. If you say killing other players in JQ is an "option" then you also say killing other players in GvG / HA is an "option". You do not have to kill the other team in order to kill the Guild Lord, it's just very helpful.

Quote:

I'm also not saying killing players doesn't have any effect in JQ or FA, obviously if you can kill a monk, you have potentially defended a shrine from getting nuked, or have the option to kill a carrier, but the truth is that killing other players is still vastly inferior to killing NPC's.

The first part is definitely true. But I argue you understate the effects of killing players. You need to kill players when they are 1) stopping you from capping shrines, 2) capping shrines faster than / as fast as you can cap them or 3) stopping your carriers from running jade. Every good player in JQ will be doing one or more of these three, and all three benefit the other team while hurting yours. Therefore you kill them. 20s respawn timer or not, you kill them when you have to and ignore them when you don't, simple as that.

PS: I bet 7 Eles will beat 7 Monks.

Xiphos The Fallen · Jun 07, 2011, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You want to be careful with that statement. The Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero are NPCs, too. So is balling Knights and nuking them with Rodgort's Invocation / Scythes. I consider JQ and FA PvP.

Have you played a capper before? If you have, have you ever:

1. Been snared before you get to shrine?
2. Been killed before you get to shrine?
3. Failed to cap because the NPCs are being healed by defensive characters?
4. Get interrupted while capping?
5. Watched a shrine get taken back by the other team 5 seconds after you take it?

You cannot win by facerolling in JQ. If you don't have to fight through players to get to the shrine it's because your opponents are bad, nothing else.

As for so-called "pugs", same applies to RA. Team composition plays a part, and if your team are worse than the other you cannot reasonably expect to win. Claiming however that the team with more cappers wins is totally wrong. If you play with 8 N/A Bombers, your turtles will be impossible to defend, and one single turtle killer can potentially cost you the game. I played a game where Luxons held green and yellow for most of the game, and yet Kurzicks won 9-6. It wasn't because turtles got stuck. Why?

Have you ever played a Mesmer? Less than 1 second cast time on everything, able to cap and kill players quickly. No risk, can spam from miles away, don't need to suicide. And most carry a movement or defense skill anyway, in case they do get caught. Also, you don't need more than 2-3 cappers vs a non capper team to make a difference. The ability to wipe out a quarry with every death is huge and game changing in my eyes.

Consider the following scenario:

Team A (Opponents)
- 8 Players
- 0 Cappers

Team B (Your team)
- 8 Players
- 1 Capper (You)

- Team A and B are of equal skill level
- Which team has higher chances of winning? Team B. Simply because of you. Out comped? Not so much. Unfair advantage? possibly.

Whirl E Vic · Jun 07, 2011, 12:51 PM // 12:51

*shrugs*

I still find it fun and it's still the best place to make people rage by bringing a Vow of Silence build to cap the shrines.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 07, 2011, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Can also dp out the enemy team in gvg.

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2011, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Show me this Mesmer bar. Also of course team B has a higher chance of winning, it's 9v8 ...

@above - true, I forgot about that, but DP'ing out the entire enemy team hardly ever happens.

kedde · Jun 08, 2011, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Half of the time because people resign before it gets close. Any sort of pure spike build is reliant on DP'ing out the opposing team, same has usually been true for hexbuilds. So your argument doesn't go along all that well.

Xenomortis · Jun 08, 2011, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Show me this Mesmer bar. Also of course team B has a higher chance of winning, it's 9v8 ...

Define the set A to be the set of all players on team A.
Define the set AC to be the set of all players on team A whose build is designed to capture shrines. Clearly AC is a subset of A.
|A| = 8 and |AC| = 0

Similarly define the sets B and BC.
|B| = 8 and |BC| = 1

Now we've formalised the statement made earlier, try again.

Jeydra · Jun 08, 2011, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Half of the time because people resign before it gets close. Any sort of pure spike build is reliant on DP'ing out the opposing team, same has usually been true for hexbuilds. So your argument doesn't go along all that well.

What did you think my argument was?

@Xeno - insufficient information. What are the "players" running? What do you call builds that do more than capture shrines (e.g. Mo/P's), do you include them as "designed to capture shrines"? With the amount of information provided there, anything is possible and both sides can win.